TT: Can nationalism and political progress go hand in hand, as in the case of Taiwan?
BA: The big idealism of nationalism typically comes when it's not an ideal state. It's a popular movement for freedom and independence. The state is a much more wicked organization. The state has its own interests and will try to use nationalism for its own purposes. It's typically states that do the bad things that nationalism gets accused of -- for the state's own reasons.
If you look at world history, it's absolutely clear to me that nationalism and progress go together, it's a popular movement. It's really essential for a modern society, which is full of competition, full of liberalism. There has to be something that makes people behave reasonably well towards each other. Nationalism is a very powerful glue and we don't have anything else at the moment that does that work much better than nationalism.
PHOTO: CHEN CHENG-CHANG, TAIPEI TIMES
I sometimes try to think of what would happen in a place like the US if there wasn't a sense that we're all Americans, which sets a limit to how badly we can behave to each other.
It's very important for developing societies to develop nationalism. It doesn't mean that nothing will go wrong but most nationalism, everyday nationalism, is a positive powerful force.
TT: What about when nationalism fractures a state, when it splits rather than glues a society together?
BA: It's like a healthy body: once in a while it can get sick and it can develop an abnormal condition.
Usually when its sick, you have to look to the top [the state] to see what's going on. I do believe myself that the vast majority of ordinary Chinese people are not terribly concerned about whether Taiwan is independent or not.
TT: How would you describe the Chinese reaction to the Belgrade bombing incident, the stoning of the American Embassy and the comment [you made] that some [of your] Chinese students suggested that China should punish the US by bombing Taiwan?
BA: The students were likely under pressure from the Chinese embassy to show they are good Chinese. I think the main reason for this has nothing to do with the embassy. I think this is something that is very local. It's this very severe sexual competition and frustration between the mainland and Taiwan boys. The "mainland boys" don't have as much money as the "Taiwan boys." They don't speak English as well, they're not up to date with the music and videos, they feel much more strange in America than Taiwanese boys. Mainland girls have a wonderful time. They go out a lot, everybody wants to date them. They don't have to go out with Chinese boys. In fact, they criticize them for being very sexist and these mainland boys find it very difficult to have dates. They [mainlanders] are jealous of these Taiwanese boys and it comes out in this form. Once they are back on the mainland, I am not sure they will go on talking this way.
It's a product of a very specific situation [they face] in the US.
TT: You talked about nationalism acting as a "glue." Taiwan is a very small island with more than 10 ethnic groups. What impact will this have on Taiwan's national identity?
BA: I don't think it's a huge problem. In almost every society there are different kinds of groups. As long as they are given the space to be themselves, they can still be loyal to the bigger unit.
The US is an easy example. All kinds of people and ethnic groups live there and they are proud of being Blacks or Italians, but underneath there is this bigger loyalty [of nationalism]. This is a challenge to the leaders, to open a space for these groups.
It's up to everybody to make these people feel at home and not force them to become one type of Taiwanese.
There should be many possibilities to be Taiwanese in different ways. Being Taiwanese is a political idea, not an ethnic idea.
TT: Some Aboriginal activists say "we are not Taiwanese, we are not Chinese, we are Austronesian." What do you think of their claims?
BA: I think that's a question of whether Taiwanese nationalists have a big enough spirit, so that Taiwanese-ness is not turned into some kind of Hokkien-ness. It's a question of having goodwill and openness.
TT: You have said that Taiwan should be able to have a cultural affiliation with China, without a political loyalty. It seems impossible for China to accept this.
BA: We do know that Taiwan only became a province at the very end of the Ching Dynasty. I come from Ireland, it was "part of the UK" for six to seven hundred years. And it disappeared. For hundreds of years, people in England looked at this place and said "it's ours." But in the end, they had to give it up, they didn't like it, they even fought a war over it. Now Ireland is a neighbor in the European community.
Beijing needs to modernize its mind and eventually it will ... the facts are on Taiwan's side.
That's why Singapore is useful [with its claim of being a Confucian society and its linguistic affinities], because it means China is aware that there are other non-aligned Chinese-speaking states -- Singapore, for one. So, why can't they stand for one more? I really don't think that Chinese leaders are stupid -- different states can speak the same language, it's not a problem.
It [sharing the same language, but being a different political entity] came about because all these countries were originally oppressed by Spain, if we are speaking of the original Spanish colonies; English colonies by England, French colonies by France; and even in the Arab world the same sort of thing happened -- it has its origins in domination. It'll take a while, but people get over it and you can have modern relations. China can't yet make a distinction between the Chinese empire ["the middle kingdom"] and the Chinese nation.
Benedict Anderson is the Aaron L. Binenkorb Professor of Inter-national Studies at Cornell University and author of numerous books on nationalism in Asia. He is also the author of "Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origins and Spread of Nationalism." Anderson was in Taiwan for the International Conference on World Civilizations in the New Century, sponsored by the Institute for National Policy Research (INPR), April 24-25.
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