Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九): Mr [Frank] Hsieh [謝長廷], your political experience is similar to that of President Chen Shui-bian (陳水扁) and people think you are Chen Shui-bian and that you represent the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP).
Independence advocates have said they would accept all of Chen's policies as long as he was elected president. However, Chen failed to carry out his "new middle way" because of pressure from deep-green supporters. You have tried to distance yourself from President Chen, but many suspect that you are a two-man show. How will you address the pressure from deep-green members and successfully distance yourself from Chen if you are elected?
Frank Hsieh: I have made my stance and policies very clear since the DPP's primary, such as "a constitutional one China" and "reconciliation and coexistence." I do have some similarities with President Chen. We both defend Taiwan's national identity and I think President Chen has made a great contribution to the nation with his persistence in defending our national identity over the years.
PHOTO COURTESY OF THE TAIPEI ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOJOURNALISTS
I am, however, different from the president in many respects. President Chen forgot the fact that the DPP was a minority party in the legislature and his administration has alienated itself from the public.
President Chen made government reshuffles too frequently during his terms. On the other hand, he proposed to expand the scope of overseas investment, a policy that is actually similar to Mr Ma's platform. Chen was flexible, but I think Mr Ma is more capricious when it comes to policy shifting. However, we [the DPP] do need to conduct self-examination.
I've never changed my stances and I continue to advocate the policies I proposed in the past, including solidarity as a whole, coexistence between communities and prioritizing Taiwan, culture and minority groups.
PHOTO: WANG MIN-WEI, TAIPEI TIMES
The Chen era will end after he steps down, but the conflict between "pro-Chen" and "anti-Chen" groups will continue if Mr Ma becomes president. That's why I should become the new president.
Hsieh: China has never acknowledged the so-called "`one China,' with each side having its own interpretation" concept. In fact, the Chinese Central Committee's Taiwan Affairs Office openly expressed its opposition to the idea on Aug. 4, 1999. I would like to ask Mr Ma to give an example of the endorsement of this principle by any high-ranking official or government agency in China. This is a question about facts because China condemned Taiwan for distorting the "`one China,' with each side having its own interpretation" principle.
Ma: The DPP can oppose the content of the 1992 consensus, but it cannot deny its existence. I supervised the case in 1992 as former vice chairman of the Mainland Affairs Council (MAC). Our negotiations with China in Hong Kong did encounter some difficulties, but they did accept the "one China" principle after the negotiations. It can be found in documents, but the DPP has refused to acknowledge that fact.
President Chen expressed his willingness to accept the "1992 consensus" during a June 27, 2000, visit by a group from the US, but former MAC chairman Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) denied the matter in a press conference less than 24 hours later.
The DPP knew about the existence of the 1992 consensus, but refused to touch on the issue of "one China." The Chinese Nationalist Party [KMT] was not afraid to discuss the issue because we know that "one China" meant "the Republic of China." Mr Hsieh, you would have to say that "one China" means the Republic of China if you are elected president. What are you afraid of regarding the issue of "one China"? Why do you feel ashamed? China expressed its willingness to seek coexistence with Taiwan while accepting each side's differences and to negotiate on equal terms in 2005.
We can improve cross-strait relations step by step. We will send [representatives from the] Straits Exchange Foundation [SEF] to negotiate the issue with China's Association for Relations Across the Taiwan Strait [ARATS] and express our position.
The issue of sovereignty is difficult to address and we may not come up with the solution in our lifetime. However, we can still handle the issue by leaving it aside temporarily and focus our efforts on solving more pressing issues.
Ma: You boast about your performance as former Kaohsiung mayor, but as premier, you had the lowest support rate among the Chen administration's six premiers, with your support rate dropping from 44 percent to 22 percent within two months after beginning your term. Given that performance record, how would you be a better president than me?
Hsieh: My performance was poorer than that of former premier Su Tseng-chang (
Moreover, you are the first mayor of a municipality to be indicted and the first presidential candidate to be indicted. How can you talk about clean government and transparency?
Hsieh: [KMT vice presidential candidate] Vincent Siew (
Ma: I advise Mr Hsieh to focus his energy on the content of the "cross-strait common market" rather than its title. Mr Siew's cross-strait common market would involve cross-strait economic negotiations on equal terms and seek to expand the nation's economy by gradually integrating it with China's and ultimately connecting with the global market.
We will not only cooperate with China, but also seek to sign free-trade agreements [FTAs] with the US, Japan, South Korea and ASEAN countries, especially Singapore.
The cross-strait common market is a long-term goal and we would start by signing an economic agreement. A presidential candidate with vision should not attack the title of a policy.
A cross-strait common market would not sell out Taiwan. No country in the EU was sold out by the European Coal and Steel Community in 1951 or the Treaty of Rome in 1957.
I would not allow Chinese workers to work in Taiwan. Until 1985, the EU granted a visa-free [mechanism for workers] to only six countries. Opening up the labor market is not a necessary element for a common market.
A cross-strait common market cannot be achieved in a short time. We need to sign an economic cooperation agreement and solve the issues of investment protection, such as avoiding dual taxation.
Ma: The DPP's education policies are constantly changing. From the so-called "95 Curriculum Outline," to the "98 Curriculum Outline," the "Nine-year integrated curriculum" to the "12-year compulsory education," the education slogans are too numerous to recall and add uncertainty to students' lives. Minister of Education Tu Cheng-sheng (
Hsieh: There's room for improvement in terms of education, but there are parts we are proud of. Young people have shown their talent in various fields. For example, we claimed five or six gold medals in Science and Math Olympia contests. We have talent from all walks of life, such as Kevin Lin (
We do, however, need to look back at our education policies. Exams guide the way of the teaching and result in great competitiveness in cram schools.
Therefore, I proposed to extend compulsory education to high schools and vocational schools and help society adapt to the new system gradually.
You proposed unified versions of textbooks and allowed local governments to conduct basic competence tests for junior-high school students. Such a policy appeased the anxiety of some parents, but it was a selfish policy, as it meant students in Taoyuan and Hsinchu, for example, could not take tests in Taipei.
Hsieh: During your stint as KMT chairman, you wrote a letter to Chinese President Hu Jintao (
Ma: My future China policy will have the same underlying principle as all my other policies -- Taiwan-centric incentives for the people.
The fact is the KMT-CCP forum produced many pragmatic results, including zero-tariffs or reduced tariffs in many realms. In future, my Taiwan-centric principle will be the basic requirement for all China-related negotiations. If the results of the negotiations fit the requirements, then we can take it up to another level by using official channels such as the SEF and China's ARATS to hold further discussions. All talks with China, including the topics discussed between Lien and Hu, have to follow the same model before the content becomes official.
As far as the farming industry goes, Taiwan's agricultural sector already has a very comprehensive framework. Taiwan, however, must expand its market to southeast Asia, northeast Asia and even China because the local market is too small. In future, once direct links are allowed and many restrictions are relaxed, Taiwan can sell seedlings to China. Taiwan can sell many things to the mainland. I stress, as president, I would never sell out Taiwan. Rather, I would make sure Taiwanese products are sold all over the world.
Ma: We saw recently that the DPP government is eagerly selling off or transforming many national assets into private corporations. Projects such as Taiwan Goal, the Grand Hotel, urban restructuring projects and Sino Swearingen Aircraft Corp (SSAC) are either privately funded or are in the process of being privatized. Why is the DPP government so eager to take such action before May 20? The public suspects [the DPP] is hollowing out Taiwan. What is the real purpose of this? In the past, you openly supported Taiwan Goal, but now you don't even dare mention it. What is your real stance on the issue?
Hsieh: Actually, the SSAC case started when Siew was premier. You should ask him. It was a decision made during the KMT era. As far as the urban restructuring projects are concerned, it is common sense that it is impossible to embezzle any money from those projects because they have yet to receive any money.
I will leave the administration to explain itself on Taiwan Goal. The government has made itself very clear on the subject and sadly Ma has not researched the topic thoroughly.
Hsieh: In June 2007, the KMT pledged to open direct-flights and establish a "cross-strait common market" within a year. In June 2004, in a speech in Singapore, Mr Ma said that direct flights and a common market should be priority policies. If all these are priorities, then why wait 50 years? And why are we discussing things that will happen 50 years later?
Ma: In Rome 1957, the European countries signed an agreement to establish the European Economic Community. At that time, it was already called the common market.
However, the coal and steel industries did not form an alliance until 1967. The community also did not have a common currency until 1992 or 1993, when the Maastricht Treaty was signed. The idea of a common market will not be realized instantly because there are many steps involved.
The American Chamber of Commerce in Taipei and the European Chamber of Commerce Taipei have frequently criticized the government of being unrealistic and unwilling to consider normalization of economic relations with China. The US has also said it would refuse to sign a FTA with Taiwan if Taiwan maintained its usual position. Taiwan would have an easier time negotiating with the US or ASEAN once it overcomes the hurdle [of dealing with China].
My plan is on a global level, starting from southeast Asia. The common market approach can link Taiwan with the rest of the world even though it will take a bit of time before it becomes a reality. However, we can always start with signing agreements.
Ma: During the last eight years of the DPP administration, there have been constant personnel reshuffles -- six premiers including you. The DPP kept saying it would boost the economy but named six ministers of economic affairs, six finance ministers and four transportation ministers. Out of the 80-plus political appointments, over 50 have resigned. Between you and Su, you have one-and-half years of premiership under your belts. Are you at all responsible for the constant reshuffles that have contributed to the political instability in the country?
Hsieh: I have said it before, the frequent personnel reshuffles were not good and I myself was one of their victims. However, you have never been president or premier, so we can only scrutinize your performance during your two terms as Taipei City mayor. While you were mayor, there were 42 personnel shifts at the government official level. This demonstrates your lack of ability to look at yourself.
Also, under the DPP government, many ministers reached their level by first becoming deputy ministers. Moreover, there are many administrative deputy ministers who have been in office for more than a decade.
I agree that we should not change ministers so often. I don't even think I should have resigned [as premier]. I tried to resolve party conflict when I was premier but you, as KMT chairman, often countered my efforts by vetoing my proposals.
Hsieh: Wang You-theng (王又曾), a current economic fugitive who is on the run in the US, is a member of the KMT's Central Standing Committee [CSC]. If elected president, will you pardon these KMT-supported crooks and allow them to come back to Taiwan? Have you ever received any political contributions from Wang?
Ma: Wang has not been a CSC member for a very long time and I have never accepted any political contributions from him. If elected president, I will do exactly what I did when I was minister of justice and request that criminals be brought back to Taiwan to be tried in a court of law. When I was minister of justice, I worked very hard to negotiate with the US. At that time, the ministry was active in sending American lawbreakers back to the US, but the US often refused to do the same when Taiwan made similar requests. I was very displeased with that. In future, I will redouble my efforts to demand that the US [comply with such requests].
As far as China is concerned, in September 1990, Taiwan and China signed the "Kinmen Accord" with the objective of repatriating smugglers and criminals. This demonstrates that the KMT has long established a comprehensive mechanism for fighting crime.
Because of Taiwan's diplomatic situation, it is difficult to demand that countries send back Taiwanese criminals. This is the result of the difficulty we have had signing extradition treaties with other countries. However, where there is a will, there is a way. At the moment, [I believe] it is possible to sign such treaties with ASEAN countries, but it may not be so easy to do so with the US and European countries.
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