Taipei Times: You've asked China to apologize for the damage the "Anti-Secession" Law has done to cross-strait relations. Can you describe what form this apology should take?
Joseph Wu (吳釗燮): Actions speak louder than words and we want China to take real action to show that it is sorry. First, China should completely respect Taiwanese public opinion and choice and the fact that Taiwan is a democratic country. Second, China needs to give up the use of military force under any circumstances. These are two aspects people want to see. This is what the parade on the 26th [Saturday] is about -- democracy and peace.
TT: What sort of policy would indicate Beijing's respect of Taiwan's democracy?
PHOTO: SEAN CHAO, TAIPEI TIMES
Wu: China has hurt the Taiwanese people in a lot of ways, outside of passing the Anti-Secession Law. For example, China has completely blocked news of any positive messages coming from Taiwan or events that take place in Taiwan. They won't let the Chinese people know what is happening in Taiwan.
For example, I trust that Taipei Time's Internet [site] has been blocked by the Chinese authorities. There is no exception. All news service [sites] have been blocked by China. Under such circumstances, how can China understand Taiwan? And if they can't understand Taiwan, how can they understand our democracy, or see how Taiwan's democracy could contribute to China's development?
So the first thing that has to be done is that all Internet [sites] need to be open to all. They need to let Chinese academics, officials and the people understand what the Taiwanese are thinking, doing. This is the first aspect.
Second, China continues to isolate Taiwan in the international community. It is hard to estimate how much this has harmed the Taiwanese people, but it is surely very significant.
There are many organizations that Taiwan has a right to participate in, but China stands in the way of such participation. The most obvious example is participation in the World Health Organization. They won't let Taiwan participate in normal international activities, but at the same time say they are taking care of Taiwan.
They have to stop the lies and they have to stop meddling in Taiwan's participation in international organizations. This is a concrete action that China needs to take.
Third, the pressure on Taiwan's military. If China announces that it won't use force to attack Taiwan, if it announces it will take back military deployment targeted at Taiwan, then I'd say we are seeing China apologize.
TT: Under what circumstances do you think an interim agreement that holds Taiwan to halting any moves towards de jure independence and China to renouncing the use of force for a set period of time would be possible?
Wu: The problem is not on our side. It is quite clear -- beginning in 2000 -- our president has made it clear over and over again, as long as China does not have any intention to use force against Taiwan, we will not formally declare independence, we will not change our national title, we will not put "state to state relations" into the Constitution and we will not abolish the National Unification Council or guidelines. We have made it very clear that it is not a problem for us not to formally declare de jure independence.
The problem is on the Chinese side. They continue to say, and very clearly, that they will never renounce the use of force against Taiwan. As long as China renounces the use of force against Taiwan, I think there are all kinds of possibilities for Taiwan to reach out to China, and for some sort of agreement with China on how to build peaceful relations.
TT: Will the government be taking any measures to protect the rights of the Taiwanese living in China in light of the Anti-Secession Law?
Wu: I think there are different levels. The first level, and the most important level that we are undertaking, is to appeal to the international community to understand the problems and viciousness of the Anti-Secession Law and the problems that the law might create and will create in the future.
I think the rally [Saturday] is also a way of telling the international community, China included, that we don't want to be bullied by China and we don't want to be pushed around by China and we don't want China to impose its own ideas on Taiwan in such a dictatorial way. We don't accept any means of resolution other than peaceful means.
The second level is, as you can see, new elements of danger have been added to the already complicated cross-strait relations. So in the future, in handling cross-strait policies, including economic policies, cultural exchange, all kinds of things like this, we will have to take into consideration that there is an Anti-Secession Law in place. We need to assess and continue to asses the impact of the law.
Of course the law is just a preliminary political statement that has been codified, there might be other legislation related to the Anti-Secession Law and we will continue to watch very carefully what China might do in the near future to make the situation worse. But of course, you know, our long term policy goal is peace and stability and development across the Taiwan Strait. We need to hold that goal, we need to hold that direction very firmly but at the same time we need to handle cross-strait policies in a much more cautious manner.
TT: Could the Anti-Secession Law lead to a freeze in cross-strait dialogue?
Wu: The only official negotiations that we saw in the past few years were the negotiations in Macau [in January] for the Lunar New Year charter flights, and if the Chinese side doesn't want to talk to us more on other issues it's going to be very difficult for the two sides to establish formal channels to talk.
TT: But there's been no change in communication since Beijing passed the law?
Wu: No
TT: What was your personal reaction to Beijing's legislation?
Wu: On the personal level, it is a difficult situation for me because [pause] you know, we lived through the authoritarian era. And under the KMT's [Chinese Nationalist Party] authoritarianism, some of my family members suffered because of the heavy-handed KMT rule.
And we fought along the way to make Taiwan democratic and to make Taiwan free from authoritarian hardship, and right now, we have freedom of speech, freedom of media, freedom to criticize the government, including the president.
But right now, I see an alien government; a highly autocratic regime is trying to impose its ideas on Taiwan, trying to limit the freedom of choices of the Taiwanese people.
If you look at public-opinion surveys, some people want the status quo, some want unification, some want independence -- and this is the expression of a democratic society. Any part, any kind of expression here, any kind of political belief here is part of Taiwan, and it's an integral part.
And right now, China is telling us that we cannot maintain the status quo, and we cannot say that we want to pursue peace. We can only have one official ideology -- unification with China.
Look at Article 4 of the Anti-Secessionist Law. It is saying that the unification of the country is the sacred responsibility of all Chinese people, including the Taiwanese people. If they want to impose that article on Taiwan, I say, "No, of course not. It's not our sacred responsibility." The people have a freedom to choose what they want for Taiwan's future.
And if they put it in a law that it's our sacred responsibility, it becomes our legal obligation to follow that. I think it's the destruction of Taiwan's democracy, and of course, we're going to fight bitterly against that. We want to fight to maintain Taiwanese people's rights to be able to disagree with each other. We want people to be able to express their own ideas. We want people to have the freedom to choose their own destiny. That's what we want to maintain and that's what we fight for.
After living through the authoritarian era, after fighting hard to gain our freedom and democracy, China says it's our sacred responsibility to unify with China -- that's a shock for us.
The second thing that impacted me very strongly was the "non-peaceful means." Of course, peace is the most important value in the modern-day international community. It's hard to believe that there would be such a regime that takes this into its own hands. So personally, I feel like I have to react in a very strong way so that China can hear that we don't like it and we don't appreciate it and we will fight against it.
But as Mainland Affairs Council chairman, as a government official dealing with this situation, I have to be calm. I have to work with other government agencies to uphold our national interest. Our highest national interest has guided me through these difficulties, and I've been working with other agencies in doing what we need to do.
TT: How would you describe the overall cross-strait situation right now?
Wu: Current relations between Taiwan and China are volatile, and we will continue to asses the impact of the Anti-Secession Law, and to carefully watch other legislation that might be related to this law. There is going to be a law on emergency and national defense mobilization which might be related to the [Anti-Secession] law, and other internal rules and regulations as well. So relations are volatile right now.
We will continue to act in a restrained and responsible way though. We think that is the best way in dealing with these kinds of situations -- working with the international community to mange the problems created by China.
TT: Some say that Beijing's Anti-Secession Law was actually aimed at preempting changes Taiwan might make to its Constitution. Is the cross-strait conflict moving toward a more legal front?
Wu: This question is very important. We need to probe whether China's motivation is in essence expansionist or conservative. If you look at the Chinese way of handling things, including expanding its influence in Southeast Asia and Western Europe, trying to get into joint military exercises with countries like Russia, New Zealand and even Great Britain -- it seems to me that all this is good evidence that China is expansionist. And of course, if China is expansionist, it will find all kinds of opportunities to expand.
If the Chinese are expansionists, as so much evidence points to, then the enacting of the Anti-Secessionist Law might be part of the strategy.
Look at the past few years; China has been using our desire for better governance through constitutional reform as evidence that we are trying to change the status quo. But are we changing the status quo in reforming our Constitution? We're going to change the central government set up, reform the legislature, change relations between central and local governments. Do these actions consist off changing the status quo? No. Absolutely not.
But the Chinese way of dealing with this issue is -- at the time when the international community doesn't clearly understand Taiwan's constitutional reform -- to go all over the world telling other countries that it is dealing with Taiwan's constitutional reform. It tries to equate constitutional reform with de jure independence.
Taiwan has been in a difficult position trying to make our points heard by the international community. We suffered somewhat because we weren't able to explain as clearly or as easily as China, because their officials can travel all over the world, but ours can't. And China just took that opportunity and thinks "See? It's an environment for further suffocating Taiwan, it's ripe" so they put out the law.
So I think what China is trying to do -- if the analysis of China being an expansionist is correct -- is quite clear. China is taking all kinds of opportunities to further its stand on the Taiwan issue -- and the Anti-Secessionist Law was just what it came up with to advance its position.
TT: What do you think the US' definition of the cross-strait status quo is?
Wu: The US says that the two sides of the Taiwan Strait should not unilaterally change the status quo the way the US defines it. The US does not spell it out very clearly. It only says that we need to handle cross-strait relations with prudence. We understand and appreciate that.
We are handling cross-strait relations with prudence. We have our way of understanding the status quo, and we have to look at it from our own perspective.
We have a president that is democratically elected. The Republic of China government here in Taiwan exercises exclusive jurisdiction over the territory of its control. Anybody who wants to come to Taiwan has to get a visa from our government. There is no exception.
The Chinese government has no say over Taiwan's internal matters. That's a fact. That's the most important point of the status quo. It is based on the reality.
TT: You said the US does not spell out its definition of the status quo very clearly. Can you state the reasons why it does not do so?
Wu: It is difficult for me to speculate about the US' motivation. We want to work with the US to manage the cross-strait situation together. We can understand why the US does not want to spell it out so clearly. The US still wants to have room to maneuver. It's something that we can work with at this moment.
TT: Japan and the US declared last month that peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait is their common security concern. Will the move practically help problems between Taiwan and China? Will it deter China's military ambition?
Wu: I think it will. It will make China think twice in dealing with Taiwan. China has got to be aware of the possible concerns of these countries and think twice before it takes any non-peaceful actions against Taiwan.
TT: Is there a possibility of war [in the Strait] in the near future?
Wu: There are several perspectives from which we can look at. The first is whether there is abnormal military movement on the other side. Based on reports by the Ministry of National Defense, we do not see that at this moment. That means that war is not imminent.
But if you look at the situation from the long-term perspective, if the Chinese side continues to stockpile more missiles and submarines, of course there will continue to be the danger that war might happen. But that does not mean that war is imminent or that war is going to break out next year.
Nevertheless, there continues to be a danger in this area. I think the best way to deal with it is to try very hard to bring down the tension on the one hand and to work with the international community to make sure that the Chinese side does not do anything stupid.
If you look at our military strategies, they are defensive in nature. But the Chinese military strategies are offensive in nature. We will continue to seek to prevent cross-strait tensions from getting higher because it is not our desire to heighten tensions. At the same time, the international community should tell China very clearly that its war games and its military deployments are dangerous and have been threatening the peace and security in this area. If China wants to show itself as a responsible member of the international community, it should renounce the use of force against Taiwan.
TT: Is there any sign that China might use something short of war, something like economic sanctions against Taiwan?
Wu: If you look at the Anti-Secession Law and what it says about the "non-peaceful means," it does not specify what actions it is going to take. It could be war or a boycott. It seems to be punitive actions against Taiwan, groups of Taiwanese people, or Taiwanese businessmen. China makes things so elusive that all kinds of things might be possible.
If you look at reactions from [China-based] Taiwanese businessmen during this period of time, they are extremely cautious. They are watching very carefully what might happen next.
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